Why is pip not mentioned in the Installation Documentation?

Mathew Topper wrote:

Hi,

I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
matplotlib or many other python packs.

I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.

Many Thanks,

Mat

It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to
update the system failing horribly.

If you use it, try to install with --user. Unfortunately, this often won't work
because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of
some dep.

Hi Neal,

Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't suffered any

particular issues like this yet, but it seems to me that pip would
be improved if it interacted better with the environment it was in.
How hard would it be to get pip to interact with yum and apt, for
instance, to get valid binaries and/or devel files?

I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very similar, in that

linux distributions often struggle to keep up, which I guess is why
TexLive started.

And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said he didn't

like pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in order that there is
not a lot of work to do for system rebuilds in our labs. I found
pypi2rpm, but that looks pretty bleeding edge and I think I’m
getting out of my depth as a humble scientist.

Mat
···

http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_novMatplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users

Dr. Mathew Topper

  Institute for Energy Systems

  School of Engineering

  The University of Edinburgh

  Faraday Building

  The King’s Buildings

  Edinburgh EH9 3JL

  Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570

  School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554

  mathew.topper@...3926...

  [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)

The problem is that pip packages something as a dir where easy_install packages as a file, or vice-versa. Then when you update, cpio will fail (doesn’t know how to replace a dir with a file, or vice-versa). Next, the entire installation will abort!!! Leaving you with a mess.

I understand it’s possible to manually then fix this mess using (some obscure) yum incantations, but I don’t recall what. Usually at this point I wipe the disc.

This has happened to me multiple times on multiple machines, and was discussed at some length on fedora-dev list maybe 1 year ago. The basic message was that I shouldn’t use pip to install into the system dirs. But even using pip --user is not answer, because pip will see that e.g., matplotlib wants a newer version of pytz, and will attempt to remove the system pytz (and fail and abort).

The only reliable approach is virtualenv. Not really very satisfactory.

···

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Mathew Topper <mathew.topper@…3926…> wrote:

Hi Neal,

Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't suffered any

particular issues like this yet, but it seems to me that pip would
be improved if it interacted better with the environment it was in.
How hard would it be to get pip to interact with yum and apt, for
instance, to get valid binaries and/or devel files?

I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very similar, in that

linux distributions often struggle to keep up, which I guess is why
TexLive started.

And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said he didn't

like pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in order that there is
not a lot of work to do for system rebuilds in our labs. I found
pypi2rpm, but that looks pretty bleeding edge and I think I’m
getting out of my depth as a humble scientist.

Mat



On 19/11/12 12:59, Neal Becker wrote:
Mathew Topper wrote:

Hi,
I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
matplotlib or many other python packs.
I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
Many Thanks,
Mat

It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to update the system failing horribly.
If you use it, try to install with --user. Unfortunately, this often won't work because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of some dep.
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   Dr. Mathew Topper

  Institute for Energy Systems

  School of Engineering

  The University of Edinburgh

  Faraday Building

  The King’s Buildings

  Edinburgh EH9 3JL

  Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570

  School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554

  mathew.topper@...3926...

  [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Neal, thanks for the warning. I found the thread of your discussion
here actually:

It's very interesting. My feeling would be that a PyPI fedora

repository would make the most sense - much like the current Fedora
TexLive2012 testing repository - but obviously this is no small job.
“python setup.py install” doesn’t have similar issues, I take it?
Mat

···

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-February/162496.html

  The problem is that pip packages something as a dir

where easy_install packages as a file, or vice-versa. Then when
you update, cpio will fail (doesn’t know how to replace a dir with
a file, or vice-versa). Next, the entire installation will
abort!!! Leaving you with a mess.

    I understand it's possible to manually then fix this mess

using (some obscure) yum incantations, but I don’t recall what.
Usually at this point I wipe the disc.

    This has happened to me multiple times on multiple machines,

and was discussed at some length on fedora-dev list maybe 1 year
ago. The basic message was that I shouldn’t use pip to install
into the system dirs. But even using pip --user is not answer,
because pip will see that e.g., matplotlib wants a newer version
of pytz, and will attempt to remove the system pytz (and fail
and abort).

    The only reliable approach is virtualenv.  Not really very

satisfactory.

      On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Mathew

Topper <mathew.topper@…3926…>
wrote:

Hi Neal,

          Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't

suffered any particular issues like this yet, but it seems
to me that pip would be improved if it interacted better
with the environment it was in. How hard would it be to
get pip to interact with yum and apt, for instance, to get
valid binaries and/or devel files?

          I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very

similar, in that linux distributions often struggle to
keep up, which I guess is why TexLive started.

          And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said

he didn’t like pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in
order that there is not a lot of work to do for system
rebuilds in our labs. I found pypi2rpm, but that looks
pretty bleeding edge and I think I’m getting out of my
depth as a humble scientist.

          Mat



          On 19/11/12 12:59, Neal Becker wrote:
Mathew Topper wrote:

Hi,
I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
matplotlib or many other python packs.
I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
Many Thanks,
Mat

It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to update the system failing horribly.
If you use it, try to install with --user. Unfortunately, this often won't work because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of some dep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware,
SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial.
Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications!
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_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-users mailing list
Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net
[https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users)

                Dr. Mathew Topper

                Institute for Energy Systems

                School of Engineering

                The University of Edinburgh

                Faraday Building

                The King’s Buildings

                Edinburgh EH9 3JL

                Tel:                       +44 (0)131

650 5570

                School fax:                       +44 (0)131

650 6554

                mathew.topper@...3926...

                [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered

in

        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


Dr. Mathew Topper

  Institute for Energy Systems

  School of Engineering

  The University of Edinburgh

  Faraday Building

  The King’s Buildings

  Edinburgh EH9 3JL

  Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570

  School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554

  mathew.topper@...3926...

  [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)

python setup.py install won’t cause that issue.

Also, easy_install doesn’t cause the same issue. OTOH, I’m not sure what easy_install does in the case of deps. If you use pip install --user it will try (and fail) to remove old versions of deps from system. I don’t know what easy_install does in this case.

I have also had issues where python setup.py install will install everything into /usr/lib, while fedora packaging will try to install arch-dep parts under e.g., /usr/lib64. I have many times wound up with 2 versions of things that way.

···

On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 7:04 AM, Mathew Topper <mathew.topper@…3926…> wrote:

Neal, thanks for the warning. I found the thread of your discussion

here actually:

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2012-February/162496.html

It's very interesting. My feeling would be that a PyPI fedora

repository would make the most sense - much like the current Fedora
TexLive2012 testing repository - but obviously this is no small job.

"python setup.py install" doesn't have similar issues, I take it?



Mat




On 20/11/12 11:40, Neal Becker wrote:
  The problem is that pip packages something as a dir

where easy_install packages as a file, or vice-versa. Then when
you update, cpio will fail (doesn’t know how to replace a dir with
a file, or vice-versa). Next, the entire installation will
abort!!! Leaving you with a mess.

    I understand it's possible to manually then fix this mess

using (some obscure) yum incantations, but I don’t recall what.
Usually at this point I wipe the disc.

    This has happened to me multiple times on multiple machines,

and was discussed at some length on fedora-dev list maybe 1 year
ago. The basic message was that I shouldn’t use pip to install
into the system dirs. But even using pip --user is not answer,
because pip will see that e.g., matplotlib wants a newer version
of pytz, and will attempt to remove the system pytz (and fail
and abort).

    The only reliable approach is virtualenv.  Not really very

satisfactory.

   Dr. Mathew Topper

  Institute for Energy Systems

  School of Engineering

  The University of Edinburgh

  Faraday Building

  The King’s Buildings

  Edinburgh EH9 3JL

  Tel: +44 (0)131 650 5570

  School fax: +44 (0)131 650 6554

  mathew.topper@...3926...

  [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in

Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

      On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Mathew

Topper <mathew.topper@…3926…>
wrote:

Hi Neal,

          Is that due to conflicting package versions? I haven't

suffered any particular issues like this yet, but it seems
to me that pip would be improved if it interacted better
with the environment it was in. How hard would it be to
get pip to interact with yum and apt, for instance, to get
valid binaries and/or devel files?

          I can't help thinking that Latex packaging is very

similar, in that linux distributions often struggle to
keep up, which I guess is why TexLive started.

          And then to complicate matters further, our sys admin said

he didn’t like pip as he would rather generate RPMs, in
order that there is not a lot of work to do for system
rebuilds in our labs. I found pypi2rpm, but that looks
pretty bleeding edge and I think I’m getting out of my
depth as a humble scientist.

          Mat



          On 19/11/12 12:59, Neal Becker wrote:
Mathew Topper wrote:

Hi,
I'm interested to know why the pip package manager is not more widely
supported for installation of python packages like matplotlib?
Matplotlib seems to be particularly slowly updated in the Fedora
repositories, for example, so I often find that a source installation is
necessary. I know this isn't especially difficult for the experienced
user, but surely using something like pip would make this process for
accessible for all users of python packages, particularly those that do
not receive much attention from the big distribution maintainers? Yet,
pip doesn't get a mention on the installation documentation of
matplotlib or many other python packs.
I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter.
Many Thanks,
Mat

It is dangerous to use pip on fedora, it may result in your next attempt to update the system failing horribly.
If you use it, try to install with --user. Unfortunately, this often won't work because pip will then complain when attempting to remove a system version of some dep.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monitor your physical, virtual and cloud infrastructure from a single
web console. Get in-depth insight into apps, servers, databases, vmware,
SAP, cloud infrastructure, etc. Download 30-day Free Trial.
Pricing starts from $795 for 25 servers or applications!
[http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov](http://p.sf.net/sfu/zoho_dev2dev_nov)
_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-users mailing list
Matplotlib-users@lists.sourceforge.net
[https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users](https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/matplotlib-users)

                Dr. Mathew Topper

                Institute for Energy Systems

                School of Engineering

                The University of Edinburgh

                Faraday Building

                The King’s Buildings

                Edinburgh EH9 3JL

                Tel:                       +44 (0)131

650 5570

                School fax:                       +44 (0)131

650 6554

                mathew.topper@...3926...

                [http://www.see.ed.ac.uk](http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/)
        The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered

in

        Scotland, with registration number SC005336.