What minimum version of python3?

These are derived from today's call:

Pro 3.6:
- by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two most recent
python"
    - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python version
(assuming python sticks
- ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
guaranteed in 3.7)
- guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
conflicting kwaargs)
- fstrings
- fspath / pathlib protocol

Con 3.6:
- feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
- might get ahead of some LTS releases
   - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
   - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
     - conda

···

-
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
   - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default

Pro 3.5:
- more conservative approach
- pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)

The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as the minimum.

Tom
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Man - that seems pretty extreme. Are the 3.6 features really worth
it? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
recent distribution. Was there by any chance a majority of conda
users on the call?

Cheers,

Matthew

···

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com> wrote:

These are derived from today's call:

Pro 3.6:
- by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two most recent
python"
    - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python version
(assuming python sticks
- ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6, guaranteed
in 3.7)
- guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
conflicting kwaargs)
- fstrings
- fspath / pathlib protocol

Con 3.6:
- feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
- might get ahead of some LTS releases
   - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
   - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
     - conda
     -
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
   - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default

Pro 3.5:
- more conservative approach
- pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)

The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as the minimum.

Ubuntu 14.04 (which admittedly goes EOL in April) is still on python 3.4,
for example.

···

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:28 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com> > wrote:
> These are derived from today's call:
>
> Pro 3.6:
> - by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two most
recent
> python"
> - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python version
> (assuming python sticks
> - ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
guaranteed
> in 3.7)
> - guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
> conflicting kwaargs)
> - fstrings
> - fspath / pathlib protocol
>
> Con 3.6:
> - feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
> - might get ahead of some LTS releases
> - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
> - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
> - conda
> -
>
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
> - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default
>
> Pro 3.5:
> - more conservative approach
> - pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)
>
> The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as the
minimum.

Man - that seems pretty extreme. Are the 3.6 features really worth
it? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
recent distribution. Was there by any chance a majority of conda
users on the call?

Cheers,

Matthew
_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

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Well, I do not know how accurate is the following script:
https://github.com/Mariatta/python_versions_and_distros
but looking at the list it returned on 2017-10-15, it looks like Python
3.6+ may be quite common **outside of the usual left-behind
distributions ala Debian stable or CentOS**.

Adrien,
conda lover since he had to work with CentOS ^^...

···

On 02/12/2018 03:48 PM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote:

Ubuntu 14.04 (which admittedly goes EOL in April) is still on python
3.4, for example.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:28 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com > <mailto:matthew.brett at gmail.com>> wrote:

    On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com > <mailto:tcaswell at gmail.com>> wrote:
     > These are derived from today's call:
     >
     > Pro 3.6:
     >? - by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two
    most recent
     > python"
     >? ? ?- this gives 3 years of support on master of each python version
     > (assuming python sticks
     >? - ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
    guaranteed
     > in 3.7)
     >? - guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
     > conflicting kwaargs)
     >? - fstrings
     >? - fspath / pathlib protocol
     >
     > Con 3.6:
     >? - feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
     >? - might get ahead of some LTS releases
     >? ? - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
     >? ? - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
     >? ? ? - conda
     >? ? ? -
     >
    https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
     >? ? - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default
     >
     > Pro 3.5:
     >? - more conservative approach
     >? - pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)
     >
     > The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as
    the minimum.

    Man - that seems pretty extreme.? ?Are the 3.6 features really worth
    it?? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
    recent distribution.? Was there by any chance a majority of conda
    users on the call?

    Cheers,

    Matthew
    _______________________________________________
    Matplotlib-devel mailing list
    Matplotlib-devel at python.org <mailto:Matplotlib-devel at python.org>
    https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

How many people are using the district-supplied python these days?

Do they need the latest MPL?

I have literally no idea.

-CHB

···

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:54 PM, "vincent.adrien at gmail.com" <vincent.adrien at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I do not know how accurate is the following script:
https://github.com/Mariatta/python_versions_and_distros
but looking at the list it returned on 2017-10-15, it looks like Python 3.6+ may be quite common **outside of the usual left-behind distributions ala Debian stable or CentOS**.

Adrien,
conda lover since he had to work with CentOS ^^...

On 02/12/2018 03:48 PM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote:
Ubuntu 14.04 (which admittedly goes EOL in April) is still on python 3.4, for example.
On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:28 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com <mailto:matthew.brett at gmail.com>> wrote:
   On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com >> <mailto:tcaswell at gmail.com>> wrote:
    > These are derived from today's call:
    >
    > Pro 3.6:
    > - by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two
   most recent
    > python"
    > - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python version
    > (assuming python sticks
    > - ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
   guaranteed
    > in 3.7)
    > - guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
    > conflicting kwaargs)
    > - fstrings
    > - fspath / pathlib protocol
    >
    > Con 3.6:
    > - feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
    > - might get ahead of some LTS releases
    > - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
    > - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
    > - conda
    > -
    >
   https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
    > - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default
    >
    > Pro 3.5:
    > - more conservative approach
    > - pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)
    >
    > The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as
   the minimum.
   Man - that seems pretty extreme. Are the 3.6 features really worth
   it? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
   recent distribution. Was there by any chance a majority of conda
   users on the call?
   Cheers,
   Matthew
   _______________________________________________
   Matplotlib-devel mailing list
   Matplotlib-devel at python.org <mailto:Matplotlib-devel at python.org>
   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

We are talking about a release scheduled for July/August 2018 when 3.7 will
already be out and 3.6 will have been out for ~20 months so support
coverage will only get better.

From the point of view of distributions, I am mostly worried about running

into an issue with a distribution that will not be able to package
Matplotlib. Are there any distributions that _will_ want to package mpl
3.0 in August and will _not_ have 3.6 available in August?

If people are using system python / Matplotlib on older versions of OSs,
then they are using the old version that is packaged and are OK. If they
want to build user-space envs there are a bunch of options (pyenv, conda,
activestate) which all current support python 3.6 as well as PPAs / IUS /
.. for system level 3.6.

I think it is incumbent on those advocating we support 3.5 to produce any
sort of estimate of the harm for dropping 3.5.

I am advocating a policy of 'last 2 python feature releases' (which is what
I remember from when I first started working on Matplotlib), what is the
alternative proposal?

As I have said before, I think the community's expectations have been
warped by having to support and provide new features for an almost decade
old version of python.

As a final fallback, the 2.2 series will continue to support 3.4 and 3.5
until 2020.

Tom

···

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:00 PM Chris Barker - NOAA Federal < chris.barker at noaa.gov> wrote:

How many people are using the district-supplied python these days?

Do they need the latest MPL?

I have literally no idea.

-CHB

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:54 PM, "vincent.adrien at gmail.com" < > vincent.adrien at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, I do not know how accurate is the following script:
> https://github.com/Mariatta/python_versions_and_distros
> but looking at the list it returned on 2017-10-15, it looks like Python
3.6+ may be quite common **outside of the usual left-behind distributions
ala Debian stable or CentOS**.
>
> Adrien,
> conda lover since he had to work with CentOS ^^...
>
>> On 02/12/2018 03:48 PM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote:
>> Ubuntu 14.04 (which admittedly goes EOL in April) is still on python
3.4, for example.
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:28 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com > <mailto:matthew.brett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com > >> <mailto:tcaswell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > These are derived from today's call:
>> >
>> > Pro 3.6:
>> > - by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two
>> most recent
>> > python"
>> > - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python
version
>> > (assuming python sticks
>> > - ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
>> guaranteed
>> > in 3.7)
>> > - guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence of
>> > conflicting kwaargs)
>> > - fstrings
>> > - fspath / pathlib protocol
>> >
>> > Con 3.6:
>> > - feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
>> > - might get ahead of some LTS releases
>> > - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
>> > - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
>> > - conda
>> > -
>> >
>>
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
>> > - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default
>> >
>> > Pro 3.5:
>> > - more conservative approach
>> > - pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)
>> >
>> > The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as
>> the minimum.
>> Man - that seems pretty extreme. Are the 3.6 features really worth
>> it? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
>> recent distribution. Was there by any chance a majority of conda
>> users on the call?
>> Cheers,
>> Matthew
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> Matplotlib-devel at python.org <mailto:Matplotlib-devel at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> Matplotlib-devel at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
> Matplotlib-devel at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

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We discussed the minimum python again on the call this past week and
settled on:

- support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
years
- support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
years or oldest that supports the minimum python version (which ever is
higher)

We will bump the minimum python an numpy versions as we can every minor and
major release.

We did not discuss other dependencies, but I propose:
- for system/c-dependencies (libpng, freetype, GUI frameworks, latex, gs,
ffmpeg) support as old as practical
- for python dependencies with compiled extensions 3 years or the oldest
that support our minimum python + numpy
- for python dependencies without complied extensions at least 2 years or
the oldest that supports our minimum python.

Bump these minimum versions as they no longer support our minimum python or
we want to use new features in them.

We should never bump minimum versions on a patch release.

For mpl 3.0 (July 2018) this means python 3.5 (released Sept 2015) and
numpy 1.10 (release in Oct 2015). Python 3.4 was released Mar 2014 and
Numpy 1.9 was released Sept 2014

For mpl 3.1 (January 2019) this means python 3.6 (released Dec 2016) and
numpy 1.11 (March 2016).

Tom

···

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 11:38 PM Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com> wrote:

We are talking about a release scheduled for July/August 2018 when 3.7
will already be out and 3.6 will have been out for ~20 months so support
coverage will only get better.

From the point of view of distributions, I am mostly worried about running
into an issue with a distribution that will not be able to package
Matplotlib. Are there any distributions that _will_ want to package mpl
3.0 in August and will _not_ have 3.6 available in August?

If people are using system python / Matplotlib on older versions of OSs,
then they are using the old version that is packaged and are OK. If they
want to build user-space envs there are a bunch of options (pyenv, conda,
activestate) which all current support python 3.6 as well as PPAs / IUS /
.. for system level 3.6.

I think it is incumbent on those advocating we support 3.5 to produce any
sort of estimate of the harm for dropping 3.5.

I am advocating a policy of 'last 2 python feature releases' (which is
what I remember from when I first started working on Matplotlib), what is
the alternative proposal?

As I have said before, I think the community's expectations have been
warped by having to support and provide new features for an almost decade
old version of python.

As a final fallback, the 2.2 series will continue to support 3.4 and 3.5
until 2020.

Tom

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:00 PM Chris Barker - NOAA Federal < > chris.barker at noaa.gov> wrote:

How many people are using the district-supplied python these days?

Do they need the latest MPL?

I have literally no idea.

-CHB

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:54 PM, "vincent.adrien at gmail.com" < >> vincent.adrien at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, I do not know how accurate is the following script:
> https://github.com/Mariatta/python_versions_and_distros
> but looking at the list it returned on 2017-10-15, it looks like Python
3.6+ may be quite common **outside of the usual left-behind distributions
ala Debian stable or CentOS**.
>
> Adrien,
> conda lover since he had to work with CentOS ^^...
>
>> On 02/12/2018 03:48 PM, Nathan Goldbaum wrote:
>> Ubuntu 14.04 (which admittedly goes EOL in April) is still on python
3.4, for example.
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 5:28 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com >> <mailto:matthew.brett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Thomas Caswell < >> tcaswell at gmail.com >> >> <mailto:tcaswell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > These are derived from today's call:
>> >
>> > Pro 3.6:
>> > - by the time we release, 3.7 will be out so will support "two
>> most recent
>> > python"
>> > - this gives 3 years of support on master of each python
version
>> > (assuming python sticks
>> > - ordered, faster dictionaries (as implementation detail in 3.6,
>> guaranteed
>> > in 3.7)
>> > - guaranteed ordered kwargs / class definitions (do precedence
of
>> > conflicting kwaargs)
>> > - fstrings
>> > - fspath / pathlib protocol
>> >
>> > Con 3.6:
>> > - feels a bit agressive as 3.7 is not out yet
>> > - might get ahead of some LTS releases
>> > - but older version of Matplotlib will still work
>> > - user-space environments go along way to fixing this
>> > - conda
>> > -
>> >
>>
https://www.digitalocean.com/community/tutorials/how-to-install-python-3-and-set-up-a-local-programming-environment-on-centos-7
>> > - ubuntu 18.04 is planned to be py3.6 by default
>> >
>> > Pro 3.5:
>> > - more conservative approach
>> > - pypy3 support (but they will support 3.6 eventually)
>> >
>> > The consensus on the call and on gitter seems to be for 3.6 as
>> the minimum.
>> Man - that seems pretty extreme. Are the 3.6 features really worth
>> it? There must be a lot of Linuces at Python 3.5, even at the most
>> recent distribution. Was there by any chance a majority of conda
>> users on the call?
>> Cheers,
>> Matthew
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> Matplotlib-devel at python.org <mailto:Matplotlib-devel at python.org>
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>> _______________________________________________
>> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
>> Matplotlib-devel at python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Matplotlib-devel mailing list
> Matplotlib-devel at python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel
_______________________________________________
Matplotlib-devel mailing list
Matplotlib-devel at python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/matplotlib-devel

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Hi,

···

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com> wrote:

We discussed the minimum python again on the call this past week and settled
on:

- support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
years
- support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
years or oldest that supports the minimum python version (which ever is
higher)

We will bump the minimum python an numpy versions as we can every minor and
major release.

We did not discuss other dependencies, but I propose:
- for system/c-dependencies (libpng, freetype, GUI frameworks, latex, gs,
ffmpeg) support as old as practical
- for python dependencies with compiled extensions 3 years or the oldest
that support our minimum python + numpy
- for python dependencies without complied extensions at least 2 years or
the oldest that supports our minimum python.

Bump these minimum versions as they no longer support our minimum python or
we want to use new features in them.

We should never bump minimum versions on a patch release.

For mpl 3.0 (July 2018) this means python 3.5 (released Sept 2015) and numpy
1.10 (release in Oct 2015). Python 3.4 was released Mar 2014 and Numpy 1.9
was released Sept 2014

For mpl 3.1 (January 2019) this means python 3.6 (released Dec 2016) and
numpy 1.11 (March 2016).

That seems very reasonable to me ...

Cheers,

Matthew

Put this into the docs via
https://github.com/matplotlib/matplotlib/pull/10824

Tom

···

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 1:50 PM Matthew Brett <matthew.brett at gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 6:40 PM, Thomas Caswell <tcaswell at gmail.com> wrote:
> We discussed the minimum python again on the call this past week and
settled
> on:
>
> - support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
> years
> - support minor versions of python initially released in the previous 3
> years or oldest that supports the minimum python version (which ever is
> higher)
>
> We will bump the minimum python an numpy versions as we can every minor
and
> major release.
>
> We did not discuss other dependencies, but I propose:
> - for system/c-dependencies (libpng, freetype, GUI frameworks, latex,
gs,
> ffmpeg) support as old as practical
> - for python dependencies with compiled extensions 3 years or the oldest
> that support our minimum python + numpy
> - for python dependencies without complied extensions at least 2 years
or
> the oldest that supports our minimum python.
>
> Bump these minimum versions as they no longer support our minimum python
or
> we want to use new features in them.
>
> We should never bump minimum versions on a patch release.
>
> For mpl 3.0 (July 2018) this means python 3.5 (released Sept 2015) and
numpy
> 1.10 (release in Oct 2015). Python 3.4 was released Mar 2014 and Numpy
1.9
> was released Sept 2014
>
> For mpl 3.1 (January 2019) this means python 3.6 (released Dec 2016) and
> numpy 1.11 (March 2016).

That seems very reasonable to me ...

Cheers,

Matthew

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